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The Bioverge Podcast: Making Long-Term Bets on Longevity

About ten years ago, futurist Sonia Arrison in her book “100 Plus” explored the coming age of longevity and the broad impacts it would have. Now, as a venture investor, she’s backing companies that are positively impacting longevity through her 100 Plus Capital. In this episode, Neil ...

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About ten years ago, futurist Sonia Arrison in her book “100 Plus” explored the coming age of longevity and the broad impacts it would have. Now, as a venture investor, she’s backing companies that are positively impacting longevity through her 100 Plus Capital. In this episode, Neil talks to Arrison about the area of longevity, her investment approach, and how the field has evolved.

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Full Transcript


Danny Levine (Producer)
We've got Sonia Arrison lined up today for people who don't know her, who is Sonia,


Neil Littman (Host)
Sonia is an author entrepreneur investor, and she is the founder of 100 Plus Capital. So we're super excited to have Sonia on the show today. She is a longevity investor and so really excited to get her perspective on her investment thesis in the longevity space. What she's seeing out there in the field today,


Danny Levine (Producer)
Aging and longevity have become a major biotech theme as well as a big theme among investors beyond venture capitalists, wanting to live forever. Why do you think this has such resonance?


Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah, I think it really resonates with folks because there are a lot of diseases of aging and there's actually a lot of talk these days about the aging process being a disease itself. As you think about investing in various diseases of aging, like Alzheimer's, for example, maybe there are ways that we can actually attack aging as the disease that will then help to overcome various diseases of aging. There's been a lot of books written about the topic. There's a lot of podcasts these days. There's a lot of interest I think from, VCs and the investment community in both the idea of extending lifespan. I think also more importantly of extending health span.


Danny Levine (Producer)
What are you hoping to hear from Sonia today?


Neil Littman (Host)
I'm really super excited to hear from Sonia about her view in terms of health span versus lifespan. I think, can we extend the maximum human that lifespan, but even more importantly, can we extend the number of healthy years that folks live? I'm so excited to hear her perspective on that. Looking forward to hearing about some of the investments that she's made in the space, her thesis and what she's excited about in the future.


Danny Levine (Producer)
If you're all set, let's turn to Sonia.


Neil Littman (Host)
Let's do it. Sonia, thank you so much for joining us on the show today.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
Thank you. I'm happy to be here.


Neil Littman (Host)
I am incredibly excited to talk with you about aging longevity, your investment thesis at your firm, a 100 Plus capital. Before we dive in, I want to make sure that you and I are on the same page and that our listeners have a good understanding of what we mean when we're talking about the notion of longevity. Let me know if you feel otherwise. When I think about longevity, there are really two core concepts, health span, or the number of healthy or disease for years, someone lives and lifespan, which is simply the age to which someone lives. We talk about increasing longevity, we're really talking about enhancing either their lifespan or health span or both. I guess my first question is that generally how you think about longevity and if so, are you more or less focused one of those areas? More so than the other,


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
Right, right. Yeah. No, that's a good question. It's good to bring it up because I think some people, when they hear longevity, they just think, oh my gosh, maybe I'll just live a really long time, but I'll be old and decrepit and that's horrible. Right. Normally when I speak about this topic to audiences, I try to make a point right away in the beginning of the conversation to explain to them that what I'm interested in is health span being alive and longer and healthier. Ultimately I think it's a false dichotomy because they go together. I mean, obviously if you're going to be healthy for longer periods of time, you're probably going to live longer as well. I mean, some people might take it, take issue with that and say, oh no, no, it's going to be possible to just, live healthy a really long time and then boom, just die.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
Maybe, I don't know, but health typically goes along with, with longevity. So, so, but personally I would just like to be healthy for as long as possible. And, and I think most people agree with that.


Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah. I think we can all agree with that one. I think that's a good segue into the process of aging itself. So how do you think about aging? Do you view aging as some folks do as a disease, is it a process? Is it an inevitability?


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
Well, it's all those things. It is a disease. It is a process. And, for all of human history, it's been an M it's been inevitable. So, but that's, that is, that's starting to change our, our thinking about aging has changed a lot in the last, 10 to 15 years, before that period of time, w we used to think that aging was just something that was set in stone and would never change. You would, that's just how life was, you got old and you died. And that was it. And, thanks to some really innovative scientists who did some experiments that showed the aging can be manipulated in the lab. Meaning agent can be slowed down demonstrably in the lab. We know that aging is not set in stone and that's actually malleable. The fact that we can change, it changes everything, doesn't it,


Neil Littman (Host)
It really does. I think you bring up a good point. I think as you articulate, you said our, I think our understanding of aging in a biological level has increased dramatically. I guess, just a, a quick recap for our listeners, right? There's been a lot of research around various ways that we can today impact the aging process. That ranges from a caloric, restrictive feeding, intermittent fasting benefits of drugs, like Metformin, rapamycin, dietary supplements, for example, like NAD plus and all its precursors. Where, where do you come out on the spectrum of interventions that people can follow today that may have a dramatic impact on health span or lifespan.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
Right. You know, that's a good question. Well, like you mentioned, intermittent fasting is a big one. It's it's trendy today, but it's trendy for a reason. I mean, and by the way, I don't think it's just going to be trendy. I think it's something that's here to stay because the science is real. When you look at the science, you can see that truly intermittent fasting has a as a big impact on health. And, and one of the companies I've invested in El Nutra has, is showing through clinical trials that it actually does have an impact on aging. Hopefully at some point they'll have convinced the FDA to label them the first anti truly anti-aging diet, but they're working on a number of clinical trials to demonstrate that right now. Of course there's exercise, which has always been the tried and true. There's been numerous scientists that have shown that, as you exercise, you change your epigenetic profile and there's a lot of different changes that go on in your body when you exercise, it's not just about losing weight or, getting your blood flowing it's, you really are truly changing your body when you exercise.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
That's why I exercise when I exercise, I think about changing my body, not about losing weight or anything like that.


Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah. I think that's a really good point. Actually, I want to dive into the company that you mentioned El Nutra, or that you made an investment in, and then maybe we could just take a step back as you think about investing in the space. How, how do you think about looking at investment opportunities or is there a certain lens that you're viewing these investment opportunities through? Are there certain criteria that you're looking for before making an investment,


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
Right? Yes. I am looking for companies that either help extend human health span so directly, a, a gene therapy company or anticancer company or things can help us live longer and healthier lives. Or, and this is where I think I'm different from other longevity investors. I'm also looking for companies that help us once we have extended health span, because, it's, it will be epic to extend our health span, but there's, we're going to have to get used to that. There's going to be a lot of other things we need to take care of along the way as well. There's things that overlap to like clean Aaron water, and clean food supply. And, we can't live health long, healthy life if we have dirty food and dirty water and that's something we need to fix. I have a pretty broad view of, of longevity companies.


Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah. I think that's a really good point. I think a lot of us are focused on, quickly, particularly the health aspect. We forget about clean air, clean water, the climate change, the environmental impact and what a big impact that can have on our overall health and lifespan. Obviously, if the environment is not doing well, that's going to have a dramatic impact on all of us.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
Yes. Our internal environment too, as well. Like I've invested in two mental health companies because, the longer we live, the more time we have to have problems that we have to deal with. Mental health is going to be a very big issue. It already is, but it even more so going forward.


Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah. I think that's a great point. I think that the pandemic in many respects has brought that to the forefront as well. Just the challenges around mental health and making sure that we're all taking care of our mental health. You brought up one point that we've been circling around. It's the idea of, health span and lifespan. One of the concepts, I have a bit of a hard time wrapping my head around is the idea of unlimited human lifespan, right? There are folks like Aubrey de grey and others who believe that humans have the capacity to live to be 200 5500 years old. For instance, I I'm much more in the camp that maybe we can extend our median lifespans by 10%, 15% in those extra years, if you said, could be, healthy years, which is critical. I'm much more skeptical that we'll see humans living to 150 year for 200 year volt anytime soon, for example, but where do you come out on this idea of maximum human lifespan?


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
Well, I think that things happen in baby steps and then all of a sudden you look back and you say, wow, how did that happen? I think it's tough to talk about it all in one shot, like operator racing, okay. We'll live to a thousand years. Well, that scares people and it sounds very radical, but technically it's probably not impossible. If you look at the science and you look at how, or 150 even let's go something much more conservative. If you look at all the things that could happen and the ways that we could repair our bodies and the ways that we could keep ourselves going, assuming there's other factors too, aside from, biological wear and tear, I mean like, well, will we enter world war three and just kill ourselves off? Right. So, I mean, there's many different factors out there for humanity besides just the basic biological stuff.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
But, I think these things science builds on itself and it's always one step. Another step on top of that. Before, it you're at the top of the mountain. I think that operate people like Aubrey de grey have just jumped to the top of the mountain out of, just very quickly. And, and really what they need to understand is that it's kind of, it, it's a process and it takes time. And, but, eventually I don't see any theoretical reason why there has to be a limit. I know that freaks people out, but although, like I said, there's other mitigating surface circumstances for humans. Like, you always get in a car accident. You could always, I think there's always all these things that can happen. You're not going to, I guess what I'm saying is it doesn't make any rational sense that to say that people are going to be a mortal, we are never going to be a mortal.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
There's always going to be things that happen and out of our control. I think that we do have a decent, real chance of living much longer and healthier lives. So, and all you just need to do is look at the science and have a bit of imagination and not fanciful imagination, but just imagine how the science builds on the science. And you can see where it goes.


Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah. I think that's a really interesting point, right? We're never going to achieve true immortality mortality, but it is the biology of aging, something that is inevitable, clearly it's something that we can slow down. It just depends on, to what degree can we slow that, those processes down. I want to go back and dive into your book . You publish your book a 100 Plus back in 2011. I must say, even when I read it, which was slightly more recently than that, it was really a crash course in longevity research and some of the amazing scientific advances that have taken place in the field. And, and I, I don't wanna get off on too much of a tangent here, but I think one of the passions that you and I shared this idea that we are routinely bringing science fiction to life, and most people have no idea that this type of innovation is happening in the world today.


Neil Littman (Host)
And it's happening today. It's not necessarily five or 10 years in the future. If you look at the state of longevity research and how far we've come since you published your book, w has the pace of change surprised you, are there things that you think you got particularly right, or perhaps wrong since publishing the book,


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
Well, so the book has two, I mean, there's different components to it. There there's a science chapter, of course, and the science has changed so much, the science that was out of date, the minute I wrote it, right, because the science really is truly moving at a break at breakneck speed. So, and it's going in a slightly different direction, I guess, than I thought it would back then, because back then regenerative medicine was really in the spotlight. By that, I mean, things like regrouping body parts in the lab, basically. Like, people like Tony Talla at wake forest university who were growing brand new human bladder out of a person, a human being, own adult stem cells and, and replacing it for people who need a new bladder is, and it working and being durable and it's changed these people's lives. And, and it looked like, well, maybe we'll just, maybe that's how it's going to go.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
We're going to just create all these different parts that we replace over time, or we'll replace whole hearts and we'll replace livers. And, and so that seemed like the trajectory at the time, and then there was, there's this other scientific field of thought where it's like, no, no, it's not going to be, we're not going to just be replacing cars. We're going to do some systematic changes, small molecules, like send analytics and all these different types of things to do. Whole body changes that just slow down aging and fix everything all at once. I think that a school of thought has really taken off since I wrote the book. I wish I had included more about that school of thought, but there just, hadn't been as many key advances at that time as there have been now.


Neil Littman (Host)
Okay. I think that's a really interesting point. I think, just from my own experience that CIRM, I think the idea of regenerative medicine is really captivating, right? The ability to regrow human tissue, organ replacement, things like that. A lot of that is still relatively in its infancy, but there's a lot of things that the field has progressed dramatically on. A lot of the areas that you mentioned. As I want to circle back to your investment thesis. As you're thinking about making investments, maybe you could highlight another company or two in your portfolio and, and talk to our listeners about, so what you're seeing out there today that is investible, that is exciting. That is going to have dramatic impacts on both health span and lifespan.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
Right, right. Yeah. Well, there's so much out there. I mean, I think when that we have in common is a repair biotechnologies, speaking of repair, and that is a company that's, it's interesting because they're not replacing organs, but they're changing using gene therapy to change things in the body and change immune cells to help right now, they're their key thing that they're focusing on is breaking down plaque in the blood vessels, in the heart. Of course, heart disease is the number one killer of people, I think worldwide, at least in the us. And, and, and they're working on that and a real repair cause right now, if you have heart disease, you just take drugs and it slows down the progression of your disease, but it doesn't ever fix you. And, when I wrote the book, I thought, well, maybe they'll just grow new blood vessels in the lab or new heart parts and just do a swap out.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
But, maybe it'll be something more like repair biotech that we've both invested in, where yeah. These immune cells that are changed in the lab, go in and repair eat away the plaque and, and fix the, fix a heart problem that way.


Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah. I think we're pairs are really interesting, case study it in general, right. Cause it, as you mentioned, is applying, cell and gene therapy to try to tackle, heart disease and atherosclerosis in particular, which I believe you're right is certainly the number one killer of the U S and I believe the number one killer worldwide, at least in developed countries. I think, part of our thesis at bio verge and investing in repairs, there's really no way we can have a dramatic impact on, our collective health span and lifespan, unless we're tackling some of the biggest diseases out there and the biggest killers out there. An obvious place to start is atherosclerosis, right. If we can move the needle on a disease like that, and that's going to have dramatic impacts at a societal level. Yeah, I think that's, that's certainly an exciting one.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
It's a disease of aging. This is the thing is that we haven't had that kind of vocabulary and it's finally starting to creep in, but, heart disease, cancer, diabetes, I mean, these are all diseases that the aging, these are things that you are more likely to get as you get older. And, and now people are starting to realize that and really focus on it. I think that will help move things along.


Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah, I think you're right about that. I remember, gosh, it was, must have been back in 2012, I attended a, an aging conference. I think it was a sponsored by the sens research institutes and Aubrey de grey was on stage. He was talking about, neurodegenerative diseases, Alzheimer's, diabetes, a lot of these things were diseases of aging and it was just, it was a new terminology I'd never heard before. I never thought about diseases that way. And I think you're exactly right. It's now in the more common vernacular that a lot of diseases are age related. If we tackle aging as the disease will then be able to tackle all of these other diseases that are symptoms of the aging process. I think to your point, I think folks like Davidson Claire at Harvard are actually making a push for the NIH to label aging as a disease, which would then funnel more NIH dollars into fighting aging as a disease, as opposed to these other discreet, symptoms of aging.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
Yes, that's right. And, and I'm glad he's doing that. I actually spoke to him the day he was going to testify there. So I hope it went well. I didn't, I didn't hear anything about the proceedings, but you're quite right. I mean, it's the more that we think about these diseases like cancer and heart disease, and also they're all diseases of aging and we'll be more prepared to tackle them if we think about in the proper context.


Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah. I think that's right. As you think about some of these in the proper context, then maybe, I'd love your thoughts on what you see as some of the most compelling technologies that may be within reach, let's say, in the next five or 10 years and ones that you're either investing in or that you see on the horizon,


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
Right? Yes. Well, like I said, there's two categories, right? There's sort of the systemic things. When one of the hot areas has been this idea of like blood plasma or proteins in the blood, or something about the blood, right. Where you have, there's been, these experiments were a pair of biosis experiments where they attach a young mouse to an old now and they share a circulatory system and the old mouse gets a bit younger. The young that was actually gets a bit older and scientists have been trying to figure out, well, what is it in the blood that's changing? There's a number of companies that are working on this. And, and I've looked at a number of them. In fact, I have a call with one of them next week, because there's something about the blood that makes a difference in terms of aging. If we can crack that nut, that will be, that will be revolutionary.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
So, so I think that's one systemic area that is worth looking at, of course, analytics has been really big over the last year and they've had some successes and some failures. So, this idea of using drugs to clear out old an aging cells create inflammation in our body. So, so that's something that I'm still interested in, but I haven't found one that I've invested in yet. Those are the systemic type things. There's a regenerative medicine type thing, like the repair, just repairing one part at a time kind of companies. And there's a lot of those. And, and I'm looking at many of those as well. So, there's a lot of, there's a lot of hope out there and there's a lot of innovators and a lot of smart people who are really thinking about this. That's why I'm so optimistic that the science will build on itself.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
The one thing that I, I typically always mentioned though, and this is why I went into investing by the way, cause I didn't start my career as an investor. I started my career in the public policy world and then I started writing about biotech and nano-tech, and then discovered this whole area of longevity science and was just blown away. The reason I got into investing is that I w when I was writing the book, I met all these scientists who had these amazing research and data. Like, literally, as you say, it sounded so science fiction, but they were turning science fiction into science fact. And it really was science fact. And, but then, then it seemed to kind of stop there and it didn't get commercialized and scientists are never the best scientists are really good at science and sometimes not so good at business.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
I really wanted to spend my time trying to help get the science commercialized so that people can actually use it. It's not just mice that get to live a really long time in the lab.


Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah. I agree. We've cured, unlimited numbers of myself, of cancer. Very.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
Exact,


Neil Littman (Host)
Exactly. It's only, I think that's a really great point and I think that's in a large factor in why I got into investing as well is to really bring some of these therapies, some of these technologies out of the lab into the commercial sector. Of course there's a host of challenges associated with that. Right. So, so obviously a lot of therapies fail in translation, right. And, and recapitulating, what, scientists see in animal models and how does that translate into humans and clinical studies? There's, the unfortunately named valley of death that a lot of companies are susceptible to, but there's oftentimes a lack of capital to make that transition from the lab to the commercial sector. I think, what you're doing and the areas that you're investing in and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's really in this translational stage, right. Trying to bring technologies out of the lab, achieve that initial proof of concept.


Neil Littman (Host)
Maybe it's first in human studies and really help them gain a commercial foothold so they can be more widely adopted.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
That's right. That's right. The more that companies, and I think it's a trend these days now, too, the more that companies can work with human cells rather than animal cells, the better, or at least larger animals, like, dogs and horses and things like that. So a little closer to humans. So, yes.


Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah. I think we're seeing a lot of that as well. I mean, there's been obviously a, a huge push using induced pluripotent stem cells for disease modeling purposes, pharma talk studies and things like that. So, so I agree. I think one of the things that we're always looking for is, are there in addition to the animal models, are they using primary patient samples? Are they using, human cells or more human like cells to try to signal if their approach will translate into the clinic.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
Exactly. Or, organoids or body on a chip. So, I mean, those are the type of companies that I'm also supporting. I've looked at a few of those companies where it's companies that help other companies work with human cells rather than animal cells, because I think that will get us a long way as well.


Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah, I agree. I think, I think we're seeing a lot of companies out there that are pursuing those types of approaches. Also, there are companies like blue rock therapeutics that are using induced pluripotent stem cells for actual therapeutic purposes these days. I think there's a big push into not just the gene therapy, but the cell therapy approach. I think in many ways, cell therapy is liking behind gene therapy, but there's been a lot of investment in this space and look at recent biotech IPO, like Santa, for example, that are using, cell and gene therapy approach and have garnered a lot of interests, a lot of investment and are making great progress.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
That's right. That's right.


Neil Littman (Host)
So, so now as you think about, continuing to invest in this space, continue to dive in deeper. There, there's a lot of really interesting topics that we covered today on the show. Any, any thoughts about potentially writing another book at this point?


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
I miss writing because most of my career I've spent doing a lot of writing and now as an investor, I don't spend very much time writing, which is sad for me cause I like to do it. Yeah, there might be another book I'm right now I'm not working one, but, but I would like to, and I think, I dunno, maybe someday Neil, we can do a, a stories from investing in longevity.


Neil Littman (Host)
That would be fun. We can have stories from the trenches. I would welcome that. Well, well, great. Well Sonia, thank you so much for being on the show today. I really appreciate that the conversation, I think there's a lot for our listeners to digest, to unpack and, congratulations on all the progress you've made in the field. I think, I very much look to you as one of the thought leaders in this space. Really appreciate you taking the time to be on the show today.


Sonia Arrison (Guest)
Thanks Neil. It was great. Good conversation.


Neil Littman (Host)
Sona Aronson author, entrepreneur investor, and founder of 100 Plus Capital. So thank you so much, Danny.


Danny Levine (Producer)
Neil, what'd you think?


Neil Littman (Host)
I thought that was a really wide ranging conversation with Sonia. I was really excited to hear her perspective on the concept of health span versus lifespan. I think she made a really interesting point is that they're clearly not mutually exclusive, right? Whether we'll be able to extend human lifespan or the maximum amount of years, someone lives is not mutually exclusive with extending the number of healthy years someone lives. If you're able to extend the number of healthy years, someone lives, you will likely be able to extend their maximum life span as well. I thought that was really interesting was also really interested to hear her perspective about some of the interventions that are available today. You heard us talk about, diet, for example, you heard us talk about different ways that the diet, maybe exercise regimens can have an impact on extending both healthy years, that someone lives as long as well as the potential extension of the lifespan.


Danny Levine (Producer)
Anything she says, surprise you.


Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah, that's a good question. I think, what, I don't, I wouldn't say it surprised me, but I think Sonia definitely falls in the camp of, there is no fundamental biological reason that humans must age and die. So, I think she was measured in her approach to some degree saying, okay, let's not take the Aubrey to the gray approach of saying, okay, humans will live to be, 500 or a thousand years old, but is it unrealistic to expect that we may be able to extend life's Phantom, let's say 150 years old in the not too distant future. So, not necessarily surprising, but I think certainly a controversial point of view that there is no fundamental biological reason that we must age and die. I, I think if you look at, some of the research that's been done out there and we talked about this on the show, but right folks like David Sinclair I'll have done a lot of work around, not just the genomic aspects of aging, IE, DNA damage, but the epigenetic changes that relate to aging and are there ways that we can repair some of the epigenetic changes that we undergo as we age?


Neil Littman (Host)
There are clear ways to, to, to help prevent some of those epigenetic changes. A lot of that has to do around diet around exercise, things like caloric restriction, for example, intermittent fasting, for example. Of course there are former calorical interventions as well. You heard us talk about rapamycin and Metformin, for example. I think there's a, a variety of combinations of approaches that are actually available today that can actually impact longevity.


Danny Levine (Producer)
One interesting point was how thinking has changed over time and moved from regenerative medicine and the notion of spare parts more towards this era of genetic medicine that we're in. How do you think that may change efforts around aging and longevity?


Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah, I think there's that component. I think also just how we classify aging has significantly shifted really in the last, certainly the last decade, but I'd say even within the last five years. Again, if you look at folks like Davidson Claire, right, I mean, they are essentially lobbying the NIH to classify aging as a disease itself. I think just looking at aging as a disease itself, I think is, is a novel way to look at the aging process, right? Actually if the NIH were to classify aging as a disease, there's a lot more public funding that could go into age-related research. We're not quite there yet, but I think the whole framework of looking at aging as a disease is really interesting. If you do that, obviously you're looking at different genetic components. You're looking at ways to prevent delayed aging through not just the genetic component, but also the epigenetic component that I had mentioned previously.


Danny Levine (Producer)
Do you think this will ultimately give us a new way to think about disease associated with aging and find new targets? Or do you think we'll be able to turn back the clock or at least slow that toll, that time takes on the body and the mind?


Neil Littman (Host)
Well, that's the ideal view, right? I, I do think there are ways to slow down the clock. I think that's been demonstrated that there are certain ways to do that today. I, and I think there's a lot more potential out there. I think there are a lot of drugs being investigated today. There's a lot of other approaches that can help slow down, can help delay. Right? I mean, I talked to friends and family members in today. It's like 50 is the new 40 for example. Right. I think we are seeing people who are living healthier lives into their golden years, for example. I think we're seeing some of these things play out today and I'm really excited about what the future holds.


Danny Levine (Producer)
Well until next time.


Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah. Thanks to any looking forward to the next show.


Danny Levine (Producer)
Thanks for listening. The bio verge is a product of bio Virginia Best platform, buttons, visionary entrepreneurs with the aim of transforming health viral birds provides access and enables everyone to invest in highly vetted healthcare startups on the cutting edge of innovation from family offices, registered investment advisors and non-accredited individuals to learn more, go to bio verge.com. This podcast is produced by the use it for this podcast is provided by the Curtis Jonah Levine collective.