Greg Simon, former president of the Biden Cancer Initiative and former executive director of the White House Cancer Moonshot Task Force, discusses his long career in healthcare that has cut across the government, nonprofit, and private sectors. His work has extended from FasterCures, which has sought to build a patient-centric system to accelerate the development of therapies to the healthcare investment platform Poliwogg, which sought to democratize healthcare investing. Neil speaks to Greg about what he’s learned from his work, the themes that unified his career, and his own cancer diagnosis has changed his perspective

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Full Transcript

Danny Levine (Producer)
I’m excited to see Greg Simon today for people not familiar with Greg, who is he?

Neil Littman (Host)
Most people know Greg as the president of Biden's cancer initiative at the Biden foundation. Before that Greg was the executive director of the white house cancer moonshot task force created by president Barack Obama.

Danny Levine (Producer)
Yeah, the first time I came across Greg was during I'm a CEO faster cures.

Neil Littman (Host)
Yes that's right. Greg was part of that's part of the Milken Institute on faster cures is their effort to change the process of discovery and development of new therapies and really to give patients a voice. Their whole mission was really to democratize access and make sure that patients have a voice in not only their care, but in the drug development and discovery efforts within the pharma industry.

Danny Levine (Producer)
There's also a tie now here with bio verge is Greg's formerly an advisor following the jobs act reg watch pollywog. What was pollywog and how did that help set the stage for Bio-Bridge?

Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah, that's right, Danny. Pollywog was, I'd say an early adopter in the investment marketplace movement. They were focused exclusively on healthcare, not surprising given Greg's background. They were one of the original, I hate to call it equity crowdfunding platforms because there are some nuances there. I want to be very careful in our terminology. Pollywog at the time was limited to only accredited investors. They launched in 2013, they came about after the passage of the American jobs act. However, the sec had not finalized rules under title three of the jobs act, which were really targeting and non-accredited investors. What pollywog was focused on was allowing for the generalist solicitation to accredited investors to allow only accredited investors, to invest through the pollywog marketplace at that time, the rules surrounding non-accredited investors had not taken effect. So, I was incredibly excited when pollywog launched. They, they launched a great fanfare at JP Morgan healthcare conference, probably 2013 or 2014.

Neil Littman (Host)
I I'm really curious to hear Greg's perspective about his lessons learned what happened, to my knowledge, pollywog never really got off the ground. They really were never able to realize their vision. My sense is they were maybe a little too early, but what certainly valued Greg's perspective.

Danny Levine (Producer)
Well, if you're ready to go let's.

Neil Littman (Host)
Gregg. Yep. Let's do it. Hi Greg. Welcome to the podcast. I'm thrilled to have you on the show today.

Greg Simon (Guest)
Thank you, Niels. Great to be here.

Neil Littman (Host)
Greg you've worked in government, the non-profit and private sector. You've been involved in healthcare from many different aspects from policy to finance. As I look over the things you've done across your career, I see a common theme and really that's around both the urgency that patients feel and the need to harness technology to do things in a better way. Where do you see the biggest opportunities today to improve healthcare? It a matter of using technology to do that? Or is it something else?

Greg Simon (Guest)
Well first thank you for having me on this is great. The, the problem we've always had in healthcare is that we don't know as much about human health as we do about how a car works. You take your car into the shop and the old day, somebody got under the car and looked around, that's where we are today in medicine. Now you take your car into a shop and they put a computer on a link onto it, and they can diagnose everything wrong with your car in about 10 minutes, that's where we're headed, but we're certainly not there yet. There, there are two problems. There was probably 10 problems, but the first problem is we put way too much attention on technology in lieu of dealing with the patient. While technology is critical for aggregating data, for analysts, for AI, for all of those things that we're all familiar with these days, underlying all the technology is a human being.

Greg Simon (Guest)
The human being has myriad ways of reacting to their reality in healthy and unhealthy ways. While we've made great strides in technology, as an example, we now have legitimately big data in health, which we have not had for decades, but that big data doesn't include most of the time, the voice of the patient. Without the voice of the patient, you don't know if that 10,000 steps on their Fitbit was walking the dog or thinking about committing suicide. Unless you actually talk to the patient, you don't know what's going on with them. While we need to become much more technologically advanced, we also have to pause, take a breath and introduce ourselves to the patient. That's eventually the key to human health is understanding the patient with technology, but not just with technology.

Neil Littman (Host)
Greg, I know you did a lot of work with faster cures. Could you talk about your role at FasterCures the role of the organization and how that really serves to amplify the patient voice within the healthcare system?

Greg Simon (Guest)
I left the white house in 97, I started a consulting firm in one of my clients was a biotech company and the CEO got multiple myeloma. He calls me up one day and he says, I got a job for you. And I said, I've got a job. He said, no, Mike Milken wants to start a new organization. I told him that you're the guy. So I kind of laughed. And I said, well, you know, okay. He said, well, would you like to talk to Mike Milken? I said, well, of course, I'd be happy to talk with Mike Milken, but I'm not looking for another job. Well, he had Mike Milken on hold. He clicked Mike through and Mike invites me to a lunch in New York. I go up and three hours later, I'd given up my own business and agreed to start a nonprofit that we ended up calling faster cures.

Greg Simon (Guest)
The thing that really got to me in my discussion with Mike Milkin was when he said, my only scarce resource is time. I thought here, I'm talking to one of the richest guys in the world, and he's talking to me about how we can save time to save lives. I, I really felt that I had to do that. So I left my business. I handed it to my partner and I started faster cures with one other person helping me and the entire purpose in, and this was in 2003, which seemed like the future at the time. Now I realize were a long way from being the future. In 2003 patients were not the center of much of anything. They weren't the center of medical records. They weren't the center of clinical trial design. They weren't the center of treatment. It was the old system in the 2000 in the two thousands, so to speak.

Greg Simon (Guest)
What we ended up doing was focusing after we had a three-day retreat with about 20 different disease groups. I asked them one question, what is your biggest obstacle to practice? And after three days, everybody agreed. It was the same thing. And that is the culture of research. So we've decided to focus. FasterCures directly on the culture of research. The, the fact that it's been white men way too long, the fact that it was big institutions, the fact that it didn't involve the voice of the patient, the competition for grants, the competition for publication, none of those things were focused on the patient. We built our entire program around how to become patient centric and medical records in clinical trials. The way we reward people, not just for publication, but for impact. We grew the organization though, over the six years, I was there into a really robust patient focused organization.

Greg Simon (Guest)
It's something I'm very proud of because it is true that we can do a lot better job than 17 years in $2 billion for every drug in 2003, the many of those changes were about changing the way you do things. You can't do a three-minute egg in two minutes, but you don't have to spend two weeks setting it up. And that's what our system was doing. It was, it was in between the things that take time. We were wasting a lot of time and we spent enormous amount of effort bringing to light in the pharma industry. The provider industry, how many things we do that simply will not necessary, and that don't take patients into account. That's why I'm really proud of what's gone on at FasterCures and they've become a major institution now helping patients.

Neil Littman (Host)
Greg, I think in many ways faster, cures really set the stage for what has become almost industry standard. Now, in terms of giving patients a voice, making sure that patients are at the center of a lot of drug discovery efforts and that they are participants and do have a shape and do have a voice in shaping the future. One thing that's become clear from your comments is this theme around democratizing healthcare, giving patients more power in the discovery and the drug development process leveling and the investment landscape. How do you see the potential for this type of power shift that the reshape, the healthcare landscape going forward?

Greg Simon (Guest)
Well, I think that patients are in a position and they have banned, but they didn't have the tools they're in a position to do at retail investors in red. It just did with GameStop. They have the ability now through social media, which was just starting up in 2003 with groups like patients like me and inspire. They have the ability now to self-organize and to make their voices heard about things they're not going to take for granted or stand for. To speak the Patient movement to demand access to their medical records is now reached its Zenith. I think it's with new regulations coming out in the next few months, people will be able to start actually using their right of access to their data. Patients are designing clinical trials and selecting endpoints that are important. Them. It was difficult to do this in a dis-aggregated this intermediated society before social media, let people join up with people who have the same problems they do.

Greg Simon (Guest)
I think that we'll see that it's not just that people will bring a Google search printout to their doctor when they have their next appointment. It's that people are actually now able to check numerous websites for information and make their own judgments and be active participants in their own health and their own care. That doesn't mean that we, people should go out and self-diagnose on the internet and then self treat. What it does mean is that people are empowered to really tell their story, to come back with alternatives to the traditional narrative. They get in the medical community, and we'll see food telemedicine that has been given a huge boost in COVID times through telemedicine and through new access to data online, that people will be able to be much more hands-on with their own health and challenge, the traditional wisdom.

Neil Littman (Host)
Greg, I know you speak from experience. I know along this journey, something happened to you. You were diagnosed in 2014 with leukemia. Did that give you a different perspective on the work that you had done or continue to do and how you view the patient perspective going forward?

Greg Simon (Guest)
Well, unfortunately it reinforced all of my weirdness of the problems. Just one simple thing. I didn't find out that I have leukemia because my doctor called me. I found out because I called my doctor, I was getting off an airplane and was getting my bag down. I had done a physical three days earlier, four days earlier, and it was Thursday. It was Thursday afternoon in Washington when I landed in San Francisco. I thought, if I don't call my doctor before five o'clock, he doesn't work Fridays. I won't know if my PSA is a problem, or my cholesterol is still a problem until Monday. And I really want to know. I called my doctor from the airplane and he said, I'm so glad you called. And he says, your PSA is fine. Your cholesterol is fine, but by the way, you had leukemia. Now take that apart for just a minute.

Greg Simon (Guest)
I took a physical on a Monday, it takes 20 minutes to do a complete blood count assay to determine if you have too many white cells. Somebody knew on Monday when I did my physical, that I had 160,000 white cells, and you're supposed to have 10,000 or less. They kept that information to themselves for four days. Now, there are some forms of leukemia where you will die within four days. I called my doctor and he said, you have leukemia, he didn't even tell me what kind of have. I went to get it checked, the doctor who was a friend of mine, I actually was going to see, was scared to death. As I got to his office, that I had acute leukemia, which would have meant I could have literally died within two or three days. Well, it turned out I had chronic lymphocytic leukemia.

Greg Simon (Guest)
Even though by the time I got to the second doctor, I had 180,000 white cells. My red cells were still good. It, I was able to get great treatment a year later. I didn't get chemo right away, but here's the good news. The chemo that I did in 2015, they no longer even do for my leukemia because they don't have to. They have new pills that you can take that are monoclonal antibodies and immunotherapy drugs. My experience at chemo was, the patient is a commodity. You are herded in and you are herded out. When I got my very first treatment, it was July I'm in shorts and a t-shirt. I sit down in the chair and a nurse comes in and a full hazmat suit. And I thought, what's going on here? Why am I in a sweatshirt? Why am I in a t-shirt and shorts?

Greg Simon (Guest)
And you've got a hazmat suit. I mean, do you want to let me in on a secret? It turned out, nobody had ever said, this is how it's going to work. This is what we're going to do. This is how we do it. This is how you may feel none of that. Of course the nurse does this 30 times a day. If she spills some chemo on herself, that's really bad. She's dressed in a hazmat suit, but if they spill it on me, I'm getting it in my vein. They figure, it's not as big as deal. That'll let me know right away that as a patient, I was on the wrong end of the elephant. And, and now I'm having to start a new drug in leukemia because I'd been on a Brittany up for six months, which is now stopped working. My choices were take a pill, but you have to go to the hospital for a week, which I think right now is like the most dangerous place in the world.

Greg Simon (Guest)
Or you can start infusions of a different drug that you get once a month for six months, but it's a, an infusion where you go in and you get infused and you go out. Meanwhile, I had to suggest to my own doctor that maybe we should check the genetics of my white cells to see what mutated to make them unresponsive to ibrutinib. Maybe we should actually look at my white cells under a slide to see what's unusual about these cells compared to previously, my doctor didn't bring that up. One of my other doctor advisor friends brought that up and my doctor is perfectly willing to do it, but it just wasn't on his mind. That from a patient standpoint, most patients wouldn't know to ask. That is my mission in life is to have doctors do the things the patients should ask them to do, even if the patient doesn't know to ask.

Greg Simon (Guest)
That's one of the biggest lessons that I've gotten from my personal experience is that you should never be alone when you're dealing with doctors. Number one, and number two, you should always ask, what is it we're not doing that you didn't talk to me about that I may have an opinion about. You get into some really interesting conversations.

Neil Littman (Host)
Greg, I mean that whole experience, first of all, it sounds terrifying to go through all that. It just really serves to illustrate the point that we really do need to be responsible for our own health care to a large degree. And I think you're exactly right. A lot of patients, a lot of people don't even know what questions they should be asking. That's part of, part of the challenge. I, I think that's a nice segue into your next role when you were the executive director of the white house cancer moonshot task force for our listeners, the cancer moonshot provided at $1.8 billion to advance cancer research over a period of seven years, there's legislation created the FDA oncology center of excellence and put the national cancer Institute and care of dispensing the funding. How effective do you feel the moonshot has been and where do you see the biggest payoffs coming from?

Greg Simon (Guest)
Well, I think certainly while were in the white house, the moonshot was very effective in bringing people together to do things they haven't either thought of doing or had the time and budget to do. I didn't think about it, but we had 20 agencies around the table and we asked them to do two things. Number one, pick some partner in this organization that you see around the table that you've never collaborated with and find a way to collaborate. As an example, the NCI and NASA has radiation labs that turned out to be very helpful to test new radiation therapies that were coming out of NCI. The other question that was the big question was how are you touching patients today in their journey from being healthy and avoiding cancer, through doing the right things, to being diagnosed correctly, detected early treated successfully and survived well, how are you touching the patients today, whether your DOE, the VA NCI, NIH, FDA, how are you doing it?

Greg Simon (Guest)
What can you do to double the impact of that touch? Not just through money, but through new approaches to doing what you're already doing, that reach twice many people or reach them twice as quickly. That really, I think set the moonshot on the proper course. When we left the white house, the moonshot did not end. The only thing that ended was the moonshot office in the white house that I ran the moonshot effort and all these agencies continued because it was career people, existing budget, and they were highly motivated to do it. And in fact, last week, Dr. Joe Biden called the NCI and had a 30 minute call with the moonshot team and NCI to thank them for the work they were doing over the last four years. To let them know that it wasn't in vain and that we would be back. So the moonshot continues.

Greg Simon (Guest)
Now, the other thing it did was not just, government interaction. The other thing the moonshot did was it gave everybody in the country who cares about cancer, something to do together. That was, people asked, how did you get people to get involved with the moonshot? The answer was, I didn't have to do anything. We were inundated with companies, individuals, nonprofits, universities, cancer centers, all asking the same question. We want to be part of this. What do we have to do to be part of it? And the answer was very straightforward. You tell us what you're best at today and tell us how you're going to double it in real time. Now, not a two-year plan to start later, but if you can show that you have something you can double now, and you're going to put the people in the money and the effort into it, then you're part of the team and we will lift up what you're doing.

Greg Simon (Guest)
We will bring attention to it. We will connect you to collaborators. We will connect you to patient organizations. As a result of that, we had over 80 collaborations that came together without us giving anybody money, without us giving anybody up, special meeting at the white house. It was just the fact that people wanted to do it and we would help them. That became a movement, not just a government program. To this day, I'm getting emails from people all over the country. In some cases, the world talking and making sure I'm aware of what they've done with the moonshot effort since the, the Obama Biden administration left town. The moonshot was a Ray of hope. To speak, to mix my metaphors, to people with cancer and people fighting cancer, that they could come together and be together in a positive way instead of being competitive in the negative sense or being on their own.

Greg Simon (Guest)
And I think that's continuing today,

Neil Littman (Host)
Greg, you had mentioned this during your own journey with cancer. There's obviously been a tremendous innovation. You can see how the moonshot has really helped to bring people together and collaborate, as you said, instead of being competitive, but there still does exist. A, a strange dichotomy between what we are now able to do and the type of care, many people with cancer receive. Where do you think that the disconnect lies?

Greg Simon (Guest)
Oh gosh, well, racism, isn't just about where you sit on the bus or where you can eat or where you can go to school. The zip code inequality in this country is horrible years of not investing in minority communities. A century of not allowing minorities, especially African Americans, or particularly African-Americans to acquire wealth through owning property and through being able to pass wealth down. All of these inequalities show up in a distribution map of healthcare services, the, the areas that have been discriminated against and under invested in it's no surprise. They have the highest death rates from preventable cancers. It's difficult to overturn two centuries of racism in any four year period or even in any generation. We do know that the biggest determinant of who survives cancer is who has insurance. Obamacare was not just important because it covers preexisting conditions. It was important because there were millions of people who would never go to the doctor and therefore never detect cancer early because they had no insurance.

Greg Simon (Guest)
Obamacare extended insurance to over 30 million, more people, you can anticipate that meant we would save hundreds of thousands, even millions of lives from cancer. We're not, we don't test in African-American communities. One of the very first moonshot projects was a collaboration between the case Western cancer center and GWS public health school here in Washington, both of whom came to me separately and said that they wanted to do a study of lung cancer rates and improve lung cancer detection in disadvantaged communities in Washington and Cleveland that had high rates of minority community, high rates of smoking and high rates of lung cancer. I put them together and they put a two city program together to go into housing projects and other areas in these two cities where lung cancer was rampant and start a new program for early detection and treatment. That program turned into a 20 city program because it was so successful.

Greg Simon (Guest)
That's the way we're going to do it. We're going to do from the ground up. We're going to do it by going into these communities that have been disadvantaged for generations and start offering the services that everybody else takes for granted. We have to do the same in our leadership. We have to have more minority and women leaders. The average age of the directors at NIH is 75. And they're mainly all white men. This is unacceptable in 2021. All of our government health agencies need a wake up call that we have an entire diverse population that has not been taken care of, and we need to take care of it and we can need to start yesterday.

Neil Littman (Host)
Greg's so much of your efforts over your career have been focused on this idea of democratizing access leveling the playing field to healthcare. Before we go, I did want to ask you about pollywog, which was a crowd financing marketplace focused on specifically the healthcare vertical pollywog was very much an early innovator in the space. It was enabled by the jobs act, what lessons can be taken from your experience at pollywog. What do you see as the future for these types of platforms going forward?

Greg Simon (Guest)
Well, sadly, the first lesson that I learned was don't assume that just because a bipartisan majority of Congress passes a bill, that the sec will give a damn sec in my personal experience, treats small investors as the problem and big investors as the exception, nobody went to jail after the mortgage fraud of 2008. If a single individual investor makes a mistake, they're much more likely to end up in jail. As an example, before the jobs act, it was illegal to mention a private offering in public to a group of people that you had not determined were accredited investors, meaning they had either a $200,000 income or a million dollars of net worth outside of their house and the original sin. Most people had no idea that even under the first amendment, the government could borrow you for mentioning a private offering to non-accredited investors. If you did, you went to jail.

Greg Simon (Guest)
So why is this? This is the biggest lesson that I learned from Holly is that wealth is not a marker for wisdom. The sec has assumed since the seventies, when private offerings started, that wealth equals wisdom. If you weren't wealthy, you, weren't smart enough to invest in a private company. You can invest in a casino game, you could invest in lottery tickets until you lost your house. The irony of the position is investors are more protected legally than any other group of people in terms of how you spend your money. So why is it? We limit the rights of people to invest when we have all these protections and disclosures and fiduciary obligations, but we don't limit their ability to gamble in state run lotteries in state owned casinos. This was enormously troubling to me. At pollywog, what were trying to do was to allow the people who donate to any disease of interest to them, to be able to invest in those same diseases, by investing in the private companies that were working to deal with it, doesn't make sense that if we want to cure the oral crisis, you create economic incentives to invest in oil exploration.

Greg Simon (Guest)
If you want to cure Alzheimer's, you can invest in a nonprofit and hope that they have the wherewithal and the money and the talent to tackle Alzheimer's. We did not start the national oil, nonprofit exploratory foundation in the seventies, in the oil crisis. Yet we continue to think that nonprofits which play an enormously important role can solve these diseases. When we all know that at the end of the day, whatever the nonprofit has done has to be done by a private company. In most cases with far more capital and far more access to talent than nonprofits have. Apparently while were really trying to democratize the ability to invest, because wealth is not a proxy for wisdom, and the sec took forever to finally let open the door to the average person, being able to invest in what they care about, not just in the stock market in general, not just in oil and gold, but in diabetes, in cancer and Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and lupus, whatever it is.

Greg Simon (Guest)
To do that in a way that lets them be investors like any other investors, whether they're a millionaire or whether they just lost their dad to cancer. They want to invest in a company doing the work to save lives in the future. So I learned a lot. One is that the sec has an incredible amount of power to stop the Congress from doing things in to that. There was an enormous demand for people to be able to invest in healthcare. I'm very happy that is now a reality,

Neil Littman (Host)
Greg, that there's a lot to dive into there, but I think one of the key points that you make is really you're actually, if we look throughout history, there is a pattern that emerges over and over again, and that is capital drives change, right? Wherever money is injected innovation often follows. I think what I'd like to reiterate to our listeners is that, each individual investor holds a great amount of power. You have the ability to influence where your money is directed, which means where time and energy are spent. Your capital really can help drive innovation. So, as Greg, as you articulate, you mentioned, we should all have the ability to invest in areas that we care about and to try to drive that change. Greg, with that, I'd like to thank you for being on the show today and appreciate your time,

Greg Simon (Guest)
Neil, this has been a great honor to talk with you and good luck in all your ventures.

Neil Littman (Host)
Thank you, Greg. Greg Simon is the former president of the Biden cancer initiative and former executive director of the white house cancer moonshot task force. Now I should say a advisor to Biosearch great. Thanks so much.

Greg Simon (Guest)
I'm going to pleasure.

Danny Levine (Producer)
Well, now that covered a lot of territory. What struck you the most?

Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah, we really did cover a lot of territory, Danny. I think what struck me the most was number one, Greg's personal experience with leukemia. I mean, you heard him talk about that. He actually had to call his doctor for his diagnosis and the doctor's office. The hospital whomever may have been, was sitting on it for about four days, which is an attorney when you're dealing with leukemia. That was frankly terrifying and just really unsettling, but it's also reinforces the fact that you, as a patient, you as an individual really need to take your own healthcare into your own hands. You can't necessarily rely on doctors, right? They're here to help, but you really need to own your own outcomes to a large degree. I think Greg story really reinforced that. The other thing that I think was really telling was this whole idea of democratizing, and this is something near and dear to my heart, really, for my days at CIRM, right?

Neil Littman (Host)
Putting patients front and center during the entire drug discovery drug development process. At CIRM, we used to say that the patients were our north star, right? Our guiding light, every decision that we made was focused on the best outcome for patients. And, when we would invite patients to be part of our, our board be part of our advisory committees to get their voice and make sure their voice was heard. So, as you heard Greg, talk about putting the patients front and center to make sure their voice is heard, I think is clearly the direction that healthcare is going. One that is incredibly important to having great outcomes for patients and whether we like it or not. We're all patients at some point in our life. It's important that we all have a voice.

Danny Levine (Producer)
Bio verge itself has evolved it from its original conception. What did you learn from pollywogs experience?

Neil Littman (Host)
Yeah, it's a really good question. Has evolved and we continue to evolve. We really started similar to pollywog where were focused only accredited investors and trying to democratize access to allow more accredited investors, to participate in private offerings. And that's great. Only two to 3% of accredited investors have ever participated in private offerings. There's a huge market out there, but the whole goal and the whole mission of bio virtue is to really democratize access. We can only truly achieve our mission and our vision if we allow everyone to anyone to invest in healthcare. That certainly includes non-accredited investors who make up about 97% of the American population. As you heard Greg, talk about this idea of not only being able to donate, to causes within health that you care about, but actually make investments is really critical. I think we'll be able to really drive innovation forward in a much more accelerated pace than what we're doing.

Neil Littman (Host)
Now.

Danny Levine (Producer)
He has such a unique perspective, such a 360 degree view of the world of healthcare. We're seeing bringing the greatest value as an advisor to bio Birch.

Neil Littman (Host)
Well, so certainly from his experience at pollywog, I mean, I think his lessons learned during his time as CEO will certainly help bio verge. Well, hopefully avoid some of the issues that played pollywog, but certainly his role in, in policy in government and the private sector, his role with the cancer moonshot and just his experience surrounding innovation and collaboration is critical. If you look at his role as the first president of faster cures, a lot of what we're doing at Bio-Forge is working with nonprofit organizations, disease foundations, and collaborating with them to basically, invest in things that their communities already care about. We just want to provide another avenue for people to invest in what they already care about. Greg has a lot of experience dealing with those types of collaborations, dealing with this idea of democratizing and really bringing people together, which is really what we're trying to do at Biosearch.

Danny Levine (Producer)
Well until next time.

Neil Littman (Host)
Well, that was fun. Appreciate it, Danny.